Late Gothic Cursive

[Cepasaccus]

At http://www.adfontes.uzh.ch is a training website (in German) for learing how to read and use old archives. For this it has also quite some pictures of old documents. From the normal writing my favourite stile is the late gothic cursive in a "Urbar" (dictionary: rent-roll, but more like a history of land ownership) from 1539. Unfortunately there are only few upper case letters.

 

curate ut valatis

 

cepasaccus

[HDoug]

Iʻm not familiar with this style at all -- thanks for posting. It looks like it might make a good modern cursive because it seems to be written fairly rapidly. I donʻt read... German (is it?) so I canʻt really tell how similar the letter forms are to the current styles. Can I ask you to write something in your own version of this in English for us to look at? That would be appreciated by all!

 

Doug

Edited December 1, 2012 by HDoug

[scorpscarx]

I like this style, heavy and chaotic to me.

[Cepasaccus]

That is my attempt to write the beginning of the wikipedia article about cursive:

 

"Cursive, also known as script, joined-up writing, joint writing, linking, running writing, or handwriting is any style of penmanship in which the symbols of the language are written in a"

[HDoug]

Thanks for posting your contemporary version. you are using an edged nib -- a fountain pen? Some forms are very different yet it looks like it should be fairly easy to become familiar. How long did it take you to become fluent on this hand?

 

Again thanks for posting.

 

Doug

[Cepasaccus]

That was the fountain pen you see at the left with a BB flex nib. My other inked pens at the moment are non-flex F/M and would look boring.

 

How long did it take to become fluent? Can't say. It is not yet fluent.

 

Cepasaccus

[Cepasaccus]

I've inked my pushbutton filler with soft flex F. It is easy to put too much pressure onto this nib.

[HDoug]

No offense to our practitioners and calligraphers of copperplate, Spencerian, and italic*, but I like this cursive very much! Please keep us up to date with your progress.

 

Doug

 

*And Palmer and cetera. Not wanting to leave any style out.

Edited December 4, 2012 by HDoug

[stefanwiesendanger]

Thanks for sharing this link, this really is a little treasure.

And as a swiss tax payer, I am actually happy they do some useful stuff with my money

[Adventurer]

Wow, That is an utterly GORGEOUS script!

 

If you have a chance, I'd love to see what a capital/uppercase 'G' looks like...(my first initial, that I sign things with.)

 

 

 

G.

[Cepasaccus]

You are lucky. The upper case G is one of the few upper case letters there. It is in the first part on the sixth line from the bottom. The line begins with "Gregorius".

[Adventurer]

You are lucky. The upper case G is one of the few upper case letters there. It is in the first part on the sixth line from the bottom. The line begins with "Gregorius".

 

Ah! Thank you Very Much!

I've been looking for a very stylish G to learn, to 'spice up' my signature, and this one is great.

[Cepasaccus]

So that you may look yourself for the letters in the original text I have here the translitteration for you.

 

"Volget wie und ¶ wann das Ergouw ¶ an ein statt ¶ Bern sye ¶ kommen

Nach dem sich groß unruw ¶ spen schismata zwitracht ¶ in tütsch und welschen landen ¶ zuogetragen und erhept von wegen ¶ das dry bäpst ze Rom erwelt ¶ deren ieder sin parthy anhang ¶ und rott hatt deren ouch ieder ¶ vermeint mitt gwalt bapst ze- ¶ beliben und die anderen abze- ¶ tringen die namen derselben sind ¶ Gregorius Iohannes und ¶ Benedictus darumb dann nu ¶ keyser Sigmund Coroli der vierten ¶ sun sich mitt groser muehe umb ¶ das concilium ze Costentz be- ¶ warb damitt das gehalten und

die benempten dry bäpst darinn ¶ abgesetzt wurden das ouch be- ¶ schach und demnach Othon ein ¶ cardinal de columna bäpst ¶ erwelt und selbs Martinus wolt ¶ genant werden darumb das ¶ die wal von sinent wegen uff ¶ sant Martis tag geschechen ¶ war und ward also genempt ¶ Martinus der funfft"

 

The "contilium" is IMHO a translitteration error. I think it should be "concilium". What is here written as "und" is really "vnd" as this is a v like in the German cursive at the beginning of the 20th century.

 

PS: Error confirmed and corrected.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Cepasaccus

[Issendai]

Ooh, interesting Gothic Cursive variant! I've been trying to learn the English version of this script. It's a challenge because the letters aren't formed according to any pattern, unlike Italic or Gothic or the other more orderly hands. You end up with an untidy mishmash, punctuated with the thick flourishes of the v's and d's going one way and the swelling stems of the f's and long s's tilted at a different angle the other way. It's maddening, yet strangely charming.

 

If you're looking for more samples, early Secretary Hand is the English version of this script, and the Civilitas font was based on the French version. They're not quite the same (they have a clubbed d as well as the looped d, they have an assortment of similar-yet-different r's, they develop the tail of the h until it becomes a major decorative feature of Secretary, and they compete to see who can design the least legible e), but they're very close. They also have larger samples of capitals. If folks are interested, I can dig up links.

[Cepasaccus]

Sure!

[inkstainedruth]

Interesting hand. Kinda reminds me of the description a calligrapher friend of mine had for trying to figure out some exemplar he'd seen years ago -- he finally determined that the original had been written by someone sitting at an angle to the desk, and with the non-writing arm thrown back across the back of the the chair!

Looking over the transcription/transliteration I'm seeing pretty much all the lower case letters except for "q" and "x" (it's been too long since I took German so I don't remember the alphabet -- although having an ß is a nice bonus). I know it's a lot to ask, but I don't suppose you could find a similar exemplar that would have those letters, as well as more of the upper case letters?

Thanks for posting this. I had tried my hand at calligraphy back when rocks were soft, but various circumstances (*long* story that isn't relevant to probably 95% of the folks on FPN) led me away from it.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Cepasaccus]

Ruth, now we have q and x, but it seems they were not the favourite letters at that time as they are also not in the next sample I found two pages further there. (See next post.)

 

The ß is probably not a ß in the modern sense it seems to be just a ligation as a ß with - is a st. And there is also the sch very similar.

 

Regarding the upper case letters, I think there are acctually more there than the translitteration tells us. I think there is a convention when to use upper and lower case letters independently how it is written.

[Cepasaccus]

"Unnd diewil aber hertzog Frid- ¶ rich von Oesterrich zur selben zit ¶

sich zum bapst Iohannes vorge- ¶ nempt parthyet der ouch durch ¶ desselben

hertzogen zuoschub usß ¶ dem contilio zuo Costentz heimlich ¶ entflochen

und sust vil anderen ¶ unrat von desselben wegen ¶ angericht hatt und

ouch sich ¶ dem keyser Sigmund widersetzt ¶ und ungehorsam bewiset ¶

hierumb dët keyser Sigmund

 

den hertzog Fridrich in die ¶ acht absolwiert ouch und ¶ entlediget

sine underthanen ¶ von gehorsam und vom eyd ¶ name im schlösser stett ¶

und land umb Costentz im ¶ Elsaß (Elseß?) und anderstwo schreib ¶ ouch

und gebot den eydgnossen ¶ das sy das Ergouw sölten ¶ innemen weliches

dann ouch ¶ dem hertzog Fridrich von ¶ Osterrich zuogehort"

 

I think the a in acht at the second paragraph second line could be an upper case line which is transcribed as lower case, also the Bapst (pope) in the first paragraph. And if you look into the fourth line it really looks like "Name Im Schlösser Stett". But these are not as elaborate as in the first example the G. Maybe some form of semi-upper case to start words with?

 

And btw. there is the squiggled separate z and the ligation tz as in Costentz which looks like an n with a long right leg.

 

Cepasaccus