Help: Is This A Genuine Parker Sonnet Cisele?

[rred]

I got this pen from Ebay. I'm not sure whether it's genuine, and I'd like to hear opinions from others.

 

I heard all the parker sonnet cisele should be sterling silver. Is it true? If so, should it have some marks like "925" on the cap or barrel? I can't find anything like that.

 

The nib, to speak frankly, writes very well and has some responses. It's marked 18k 750. I checked with a magnet and it passed. Also a diamond shape on the nib. Inside the diamond, there is a posted pen in the middle, with a P above it and a W below it. I couldn't show it clearly in the picture.

 

I'm not good at taking pictures, but whatever I tried to take the following.

 

Thanks.

 

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7898/p2281212.jpg

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2961/p2281215.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8213/p2281218.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6779/p2281220.jpg

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/7764/p2281222.jpg

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/9320/p2281223.jpg

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/807/p2281226.jpg

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/4715/p2281227.jpg

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6749/p2281230.jpg

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/2699/p2291232.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1179/p2291234.jpg

Edited February 29, 2012 by rred

[OcalaFlGuy]

I am far from a fake Sonnet expert but I've picked up a few things along the way.

 

I think you did just fine with your pics.

 

One area that caught my attention was the nib. It sure looks like the real deal to me. Often the counterfeiters slouch off on the engraving quality and the demarcation of the dual tone on the nib and that one looks dead on. The Parker imprint is nice and deep and sharp where on the fakes, sometimes it's not.

 

I can't critique much more of the pen but that nib looks good to me.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

[rred]

Hi Bruce,

 

Thanks for your comment. I also think the nib looks good. How about the cap and the barrel? Should they be sterling silver with a mark, sterling silver without a mark, or other material?

[AlanE]

I have the same pen, purchased new from a bricks and mortar store. Like yours, mine has no hallmarks on the silver. Im told that the French dont hallmark their silver. I would say the fact that it passed the magnet test means its a good one. It certainley looks like the real thing.

 

Enjoy it.

 

Alan

[rred]

Thanks Alan for your valuable information.

 

He

[Tom Aquinas]

It looks genuine to me and support previous comments. I have three Sonnets , two of them Ciselles in silver. They cannot be hallmarked Sterling Silver unless they are of UK manufacture .I understand (and am open to correction) because under European Union rules .

 

Tom Aquinas

[Joe in Seattle]

Clip, cap, bottom "jewel", top "jewel", section, nib shape are all identical to my French built Ciselle from the 80's or early 90's.

Mine has hallmarks under where the gold trim is on yours, but the years after I bought mine additional gold trim was added at the bottom of the cap. I'm fairly certain yours is the real deal.

[twdpens]

It looks genuine to me and support previous comments. I have three Sonnets , two of them Ciselles in silver. They cannot be hallmarked Sterling Silver unless they are of UK manufacture .I understand (and am open to correction) because under European Union rules .

 

Tom Aquinas

 

The hallmarking issue (AIUI and told to me by an ex-Parker employee) is that the finished product is mixed metals, ie silver body with gold-plated clip and trim. Different countries have different hallmarking rules, for example UK-hallmarked pens often have non-precious metal components stamped "metal" to indicate that those parts are not included in the hallmark specification.

 

As a former boss often used to say: "If you're not confused you haven't been listening".

 

HTH,

 

Martin

[rred]

Thanks for all your comments. I learned a lot.

 

He

[Eccles]

I have 2 cisele Sonnets made in France, one with the very narrow cap band (IIIY), one with the broad (Q.III). I have another sterling silver Sonnet in a different patter, also broad cap band (P). All 3 have the older Parker logo, the vertical arrow through an ellipse, the inscriptions are in the older style font with serifs, and all 3 are both hallmarked with the 2 'head' imprints and stamped "MD925". The lines make up the pattern are of even depth both along the length of the pens as well as around the pens, and their depth is even right up to the end of the barrel.

 

Perhaps these newer pens are not hallmarked and the patterning is a little different.

 

Glenn.

[chrisoslo]

I thought Sonnet cisele pens were not hallmarked because, unlike the 75, it is not silver but rather silver plate on a brass base?

[rred]

I have 2 cisele Sonnets made in France, one with the very narrow cap band (IIIY), one with the broad (Q.III). I have another sterling silver Sonnet in a different patter, also broad cap band (P). All 3 have the older Parker logo, the vertical arrow through an ellipse, the inscriptions are in the older style font with serifs, and all 3 are both hallmarked with the 2 'head' imprints and stamped "MD925". The lines make up the pattern are of even depth both along the length of the pens as well as around the pens, and their depth is even right up to the end of the barrel.

 

Perhaps these newer pens are not hallmarked and the patterning is a little different.

 

Glenn.

 

I think the argument on the pattern are very strong. The pattern of this pen is not even, which is not difficult to tell if pay attention. Does this suggest this one is fake?

[torstar]

If it works, it's probably not real...

[rred]

If it works, it's probably not real...

 

I hear many peopole complain Sonnet skips.

[knitknitfrog]

My husband says his French stirling sonnet wide cap band 2004 has a assay mark 925 hidden in in the grid, I've alerted him to this post and hope he will chime in with info.

[TheTideRolls]

Nothing to complain about regarding the pictures 'cuz they looked great to me. I have nothing to add otherwise since I'm pretty green myself.

[knitknitfrog]

So, sorry about the delay, I had to wait to the end of work and for some photo easy light to make a photo. My husbands Stirling Silver Parker Sonnet Cisele is marked made in France, and if you look close enough it has a hall mark, 925 stamped on it. Weirdly or rightly the stamp was stamped before the Cisele engraving was performed. In Chris's sonnet the 925 is placed between the 6th and 7th 'grids' up from the wide gold trim of the capband, just aove the On of the word Sonnet.

.

 

I was using a 10x loupe in daylight and was easily able to see the 925 clearly in behind the engraving, it sits just above a parker logo in a flattened diamond and there is something I can't quite make out to the left of the 925. sorry the camera isn't quite as good as the loupe at showing the detail. On Chris's pen the 9 is all but obliterated by one of vertical lines of the Cisele pattern, but the 25 is clearly there. Click on the image for a higher resolution view - the markings show up clearer in that one.

I know many people say that the french Cisele's are not hallmarked but his is, and maybe the way it is hall marked makes the marks all but invisible so most never recognize them sitting under the engraving.

This pen has a lovely 18Kt nib, with a springy feel - just like the one you describe.

hope this helps

 

Cheers

Stella

Edited March 7, 2012 by knitknitfrog

[ceejaybee]

I can't pass judgement on the nib as I, with others posting before me, think that could be the real deal. Unfortunately all the evidence suggests that the cap and barrel are probably fake. Quite a few things just don't seem right but I put together a side by side comparison of a ballpoint (not the same I know but it's the only 3rd version Sonnet I have) capband, knitknitfrogs capband and your capband on the far right. The engraving throws up a few differences, the most obvious being the shape of the 0 in S0NNET, 0 vs O.

 

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/ceejaybee_photo/IMG_1827.jpg

 

Other issues are - The inconsistency of the crosshatch engraving especially on the tailend of the barrel and under the clip - The level of wear on the capband compared to the 'cisele' finish, which doesn't look like the sterling finsh usually found on the Cisele, it looks almost like metallic paint or enamel of some kind?

 

The hallmarking is a tricky and longwinded subject to address as Parker seemed not to hallmark all their 'Sterling' pens, for instance I have never seen an Insignia Cisele from the USA or France with hallmarks, but I think Parker just chose not to go to the expense on what was a lower tier pen, and didn't market them as such. There was a post a while back from an ex employee from the UK who said they were under strict instructions never to describe the finish as Sterling.

 

In the UK any item sold or advertised as a precious metal MUST have, by law, UK hallmarks or Convention hallmarks which are recognized here, any fixed but separate parts such as clips etc should also be hallmarked or marked as 'metal' so as not to mislead. The French hallmarks (MD925 & Parkers sponsors mark) on knitknitfrogs and my Sonnet are not recognized here in the UK and therefore Parker would not have sold/advertised them here as Sterling.... but I do have a Parker Classic Cisele without a 'Sterling Silver' or 'Sterling Cap & Barrel' imprint, it's the only example I have seen, and I believe it was made in the USA specifically for the UK market, maybe because an imprint could be seen as 'advertising' and therefore some sort of hallmarking infringement?? Who knows??

 

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear

[rred]

Thanks ceejaybee. I think your picture is very convincing. Now I believe the pen is not genuine. At least the cap and barrel are not. I'm trying to contact the Ebay seller to see whether I　can return it, but two weeks have passed.

 

Thanks for all your help above.

[ceejaybee]

If you paid by Paypal you have 45 days to file a dispute, which should pretty much guarantee you a refund. Just out of pure curiosity which Country did you buy it from?

 

Good Luck with the seller.