Can Anyone Identify This Pen? Possibly German.

[chunya]

Hi,

 

Hopefully someone out there will be able to put me out of my misery. I sent a friend, in Switzerland, an old coin, and in return she sent me this pen that had been in a drawer for years.

 

there is no name on it, that I can see, just the inscription on the nib, and the text from the box, which i can't seem to pin down to any particular maker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The nib is marked "Edelchrom Iridium". The box is marked "Erstklassiger Füllhalter" (First class Fountain Pen), the side of the box is marked "In jeder Lage zu tragen" (can be carried in any position) and the other side "Garantiert zuverlässig" (guaranteed reliable). Translations courtesy of friend.

 

 

Any ideas anyone?

 

ps. Should have said that half the barrel is a translucent green. Although it is stiff, it looks as if the filler might be a syringe, but could be way out!

Edited August 18, 2011 by chunya

[opitzs]

I love these old user guides that are written in Suetterlin.

I am sorry, I can't help you, but with this box, I would have bought that pen immediately! And the pen looks really nice, too.

[Chthulhu]

I'd say it's a piston filler rather than a syringe, or it would have a shorter barrel and longer blind cap, and the knob would be designed to be pulled rather than turned.

 

In any case, congratulations, whatever it turns out to be. :-)

[Ernst Bitterman]

The box just says "First Class Fountain Pen". I'm not right up on them, but I think that's a Bock point on it, which doesn't help much if I'm right. I suspect a German/Austrian/Swiss equivalent of Wearever, Remington, or perhaps Diamond Medal. It is almost certainly a piston-filler.

 

edit-- way to offer redundant information, Ernst.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Ernst Bitterman

[chunya]

Thanks all, and apologies. I was searching for 'piston' but my brain could only come up with 'syringe'! I should have just though of the story of my life 'Piston broke'

 

I'm still searching like mad, but there seems to be very little out there on vintage German pens. Any ideas about age? Do you think it's 1930's?

[chunya]

  On 8/18/2011 at 3:39 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

The box just says "First Class Fountain Pen". I'm not right up on them, but I think that's a Bock point on it, which doesn't help much if I'm right. I suspect a German/Austrian/Swiss equivalent of Wearever, Remington, or perhaps Diamond Medal. It is almost certainly a piston-filler.

 

edit-- way to offer redundant information, Ernst.

 

Hi Ernst,

 

I think that it is possibly a mountain goat, a chamois, so would that make it a Bock nib?

[Ernst Bitterman]

  On 8/18/2011 at 5:10 PM, chunya said:

  On 8/18/2011 at 3:39 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

Some gibberish with one item of utility in it

 

Hi Ernst,

 

I think that it is possibly a mountain goat, a chamois, so would that make it a Bock nib?

 

That's what I'm basing my notion upon. I will go on to speculate that early 1930s seems a good bet, since there's an emulation of chased hard rubber there which seems unlikely to appear too far into the era of Celluloid Transcendant, but with a mechanism that likely wouldn't have appeared before 1929 when it was made hugely popular by Pelikan.

 

How's that for late 18th century-style conjectural scholarship?

[jimhughes]

Where's Bo Bo our resident German expert. Jim

[chunya]

  On 8/18/2011 at 6:17 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

  On 8/18/2011 at 5:10 PM, chunya said:

  On 8/18/2011 at 3:39 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

Some gibberish with one item of utility in it

 

Hi Ernst,

 

I think that it is possibly a mountain goat, a chamois, so would that make it a Bock nib?

 

That's what I'm basing my notion upon. I will go on to speculate that early 1930s seems a good bet, since there's an emulation of chased hard rubber there which seems unlikely to appear too far into the era of Celluloid Transcendant, but with a mechanism that likely wouldn't have appeared before 1929 when it was made hugely popular by Pelikan.

 

How's that for late 18th century-style conjectural scholarship?

 

Hi Ernst,

 

I think as conjecture goes, that's pretty damn neat!

 

Just need a maker now. I'm quite keen to solve this one as best as I can and to get a rough value on it, and not because I want to sell it on. Apart from the natural desire to be able to put a name to it, my friend sent it to me saying that it was of little value, in exchange for a coin. But the coin was of no great value, so if the pen is worth £30 + then I think I would like to send her some little recompense. It is a nice little item to add to my collection.

[piembi]

This is not the usual Bock nib engraving. I don't know this one.

 

The pen is definitely a piston filler (="Kolbenfüller", see instruction). It looks like one of the everyday fountainpens back then: Higher quality than a school pen but with a steel nib, not the gold nib of the higher end pens. Most of them have not survived - and if so, they are harder to find than Pelikans or MBs because they are no name. Noone can imagine that people might want to buy a pen like this.

[Kaweco]

Hi Chunya

Yes it is a German pen but it is not easy to find out who produced it. The fp possibly stemmed from one of the numerous back- yard- workshop in Heidelberg/ Germany. The style and the chasing pattern look similar to several fountainpens from this area. I would date it to 1940 - 1942. Because of the metal shortage during the war there is no cap ring. The nib is definitly an early Bock nib from Heidelberg made of Chrome coated V2A steel, you see the charakteristic corrosion near the hard rubber section. The fp was made for departement stores, it surely has a good quality but trade mark pens had to be sold in special stationary shops. The guide reads: Do not try to dismantle the fountainpen. Our sales women will help you to handle the pen (=> Departement store, Warehouse)

At opizs: The writing style is "Fraktur" (broken) not Sütterlin.

Kind Regards

Thomas

[chunya]

Thank you, Thomas, and everyone else. looks like it will remain a mystery, but a nice mystery to have around.

Thanks again

Mario

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have the exact same pen, box, paper...except mine has an easy full flex/or even noodle....steel nib with a fox jumping through a capitol P to the left ...I do not know who made that nib.

 

The seller on Ebay who then knew more than me had dated it 1929 (he was wrong could though be a 1931-2)...because I think the lack of cap ring. Essentially most German pens out side an Occasional MB seem not to have used a cap ring until the early 30's.

 

Pelikan came out with the blue ink window and cap rings in 1931. Ours is after 1931 then.

 

Due to the fact that other pen companies did not use a cap ring on all pens and I find a MB from 1932 with out one...it could be this pen design never ever had a cap ring to start with.

 

It could be some one liked the 'traditional' no clap ring design.

I have a MB 234 1/2 Deluxe (52-55 only) made for those who did not like the too modern and sleek 146-9 design preferring the more traditional 139 style.

 

Our box shows us the other pen of this company we both want. It has a nice and fancy clip ring. We are dating in the 30's.

 

The point of dating yours and mine is such. Is the clip gold plated?

 

I think mine is...It does not look brassy. Brass dulls after 80 years.

 

My nib is that of a fox jumping through a capitol P; an easy full flex and or noodle ....who made that I don't know. No one answered my question on that when I asked.

(Mine has a broken piston and I've learned more about nibs since I bought it for € 70 knowing it would need at least re-corking. So I didn't check the nib out properly. I will now dig up one of my two nib testing pens and try that nib out.

 

I have a couple War pens with rills instead of a cap band. One with an easy full flex Bock nib on it. What flex is your nib?

 

I also have semi-flex steel Bock nibs.

German steel War nibs have a great reputation. My easy full flex war Bock nib has the same markings as yours. Looking in my tiny small nib box I have one that looks almost mint one that is bigger than the other one with the same marking. It too is full flex...just not quite as easy as the other.

 

((If I was organized...I'd not be finding out much later I got better nibs than I thought. Of course when I put them nibs away...I was real ignorant noobie.....Bock can't be any good or they would make pens. :headsmack: Having never heard of a Degussa, thought the same. )) So I'm real glad you showed me our pen...it got me another find nib out of it.

 

 

Even before the War Material act, both Osmia and Degussa made top quality steel nibs that were = to gold. I have three Osmia Supera nibs, all three are maxi-semi-flex/'flexi'. The gold one is a tad more flexible than one steel nib, and a tad less flexible than the other steel nib.

So good steel can be as good as good gold.

 

The German War Material act came in in mid-1938. Could be a factory could have a number of clips that are gold plated from before that.

I can't see the German Government confiscating gold plate articles, just the 14-18K rolls of nib band and any bar gold used for plating.

 

Bock was founded in April of 1939. Yours if it is an original nib and with the lack of use of yours should be came then from after April '39...and is a War pen.

Mine to 95% is too. If I knew who made that Fox and P...could be Croat, Italian, German or conquered French or Czechoslovakian.

 

Is your clip gold plated or brass?

 

Brass dulls a bit after 80 years. That would date your pen more into the war years than perhaps mine....mine could be as early as the War material law...mid 1938 in it still has a gold plated clip....or even before as the 'traditional' or second tier pen.

 

The only thing that throws doubt to me that mine is a War Pen is the gold plated clip. If yours is gold plated... our pen was not selling enough to use up the gold plated clips.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[opitzs]

  On 8/18/2011 at 8:47 PM, Kaweco said:

At opizs: The writing style is "Fraktur" (broken) not Sütterlin.

You are so right, Suetterlin is what my grandmother wrote/writes...

Sometimes you think of cat and say dog

[chunya]

  On 8/19/2011 at 7:53 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

I have the exact same pen, box, paper...except mine has an easy full flex/or even noodle....steel nib with a fox jumping through a capitol P to the left ...I do not know who made that nib.

 

The seller on Ebay who then knew more than me had dated it 1929 (he was wrong could though be a 1931-2)...because I think the lack of cap ring. Essentially most German pens out side an Occasional MB seem not to have used a cap ring until the early 30's.

 

Pelikan came out with the blue ink window and cap rings in 1931. Ours is after 1931 then.

 

Due to the fact that other pen companies did not use a cap ring on all pens and I find a MB from 1932 with out one...it could be this pen design never ever had a cap ring to start with.

 

It could be some one liked the 'traditional' no clap ring design.

I have a MB 234 1/2 Deluxe (52-55 only) made for those who did not like the too modern and sleek 146-9 design preferring the more traditional 139 style.

 

Our box shows us the other pen of this company we both want. It has a nice and fancy clip ring. We are dating in the 30's.

 

The point of dating yours and mine is such. Is the clip gold plated?

 

I think mine is...It does not look brassy. Brass dulls after 80 years.

 

My nib is that of a fox jumping through a capitol P; an easy full flex and or noodle ....who made that I don't know. No one answered my question on that when I asked.

(Mine has a broken piston and I've learned more about nibs since I bought it for € 70 knowing it would need at least re-corking. So I didn't check the nib out properly. I will now dig up one of my two nib testing pens and try that nib out.

 

I have a couple War pens with rills instead of a cap band. One with an easy full flex Bock nib on it. What flex is your nib?

 

I also have semi-flex steel Bock nibs.

German steel War nibs have a great reputation. My easy full flex war Bock nib has the same markings as yours. Looking in my tiny small nib box I have one that looks almost mint one that is bigger than the other one with the same marking. It too is full flex...just not quite as easy as the other.

 

((If I was organized...I'd not be finding out much later I got better nibs than I thought. Of course when I put them nibs away...I was real ignorant noobie.....Bock can't be any good or they would make pens. :headsmack: Having never heard of a Degussa, thought the same. )) So I'm real glad you showed me our pen...it got me another find nib out of it.

 

 

Even before the War Material act, both Osmia and Degussa made top quality steel nibs that were = to gold. I have three Osmia Supera nibs, all three are maxi-semi-flex/'flexi'. The gold one is a tad more flexible than one steel nib, and a tad less flexible than the other steel nib.

So good steel can be as good as good gold.

 

The German War Material act came in in mid-1938. Could be a factory could have a number of clips that are gold plated from before that.

I can't see the German Government confiscating gold plate articles, just the 14-18K rolls of nib band and any bar gold used for plating.

 

Bock was founded in April of 1939. Yours if it is an original nib and with the lack of use of yours should be came then from after April '39...and is a War pen.

Mine to 95% is too. If I knew who made that Fox and P...could be Croat, Italian, German or conquered French or Czechoslovakian.

 

Is your clip gold plated or brass?

 

Brass dulls a bit after 80 years. That would date your pen more into the war years than perhaps mine....mine could be as early as the War material law...mid 1938 in it still has a gold plated clip....or even before as the 'traditional' or second tier pen.

 

The only thing that throws doubt to me that mine is a War Pen is the gold plated clip. If yours is gold plated... our pen was not selling enough to use up the gold plated clips.

 

 

Hi Bo Bo... Thanks for that response ... but where to start??

I'm pretty sure that the clip is gold plate, and not brass. It is still a rich colour with ever so slight wear. On the inner surface of the clip, at the very top, near the ring, is impressed '5' possibly followed by '1/2'. The '1' is distinct and off-set, but the two is obscured as it has been over-stamped with the clip design.

The nib seems quite flexible, but certainly not fully flexible.

Unfortunately, as with yours, I don't think the piston works, It turns easily but I don't see anything rising and falling through the barrel window :hmm1: and it doesn't actually tighten. It seems that someone, in the past, may have force it. I imagine that is bad news for a piston filler which is a shame, because it is such a lovely pen, and the chasing is so crisp.

[Bo Bo Olson]

When I just took off the clip right now...I thought at first it was 55 but the more I looked the more right you were. 5 1/2.

 

The section before the blind cap screws off easy. I can't get it to all screw apart...and am not going to fiddle with it, out side of re-corking it. That way I hope to save a bit of money before I send it off to some one who can repair or make the part needed.

 

If you get around to finding out which of those guys on Penboard. De or the guy in Belgium can do the job, please PM.

 

Once fixed...the cork should be good for some 50 years. I have a couple from the late '30's I keep in water that still work with original cork. They will be re-corked, they are getting old. I got other '30-40-early '50's that are dead corked....to long in the back of a drawer with old ink.

Thank god for Pelikan Royal Blue.

 

I have to wait for my money bush to make it up over the Alps in it's annual spring migration from the Italian Riviera. I think though he's hanging around with low characters in St. Moritz instead of landing in my garden for fall harvest; he's long over due.

The problem with a kidnapped money bush, no one sends a random note.

 

Is the pen worth good money to get it fixed....sure is.

That is a great looking 'first' class war pen....It's a great looking pen. May I steal your pictures?

Mine are lousy. My pen still shines like in his.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0395-1.jpg

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/BoBoOlson/SAM_0399.jpg

 

How much did you pay for yours?

I paid € 70. I expected to have to get it re-corked when I bought it.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[acies]

Hi,

 

far from being an expert, I just googled "Edelchrom Iridium". Only few results, most of them referring to fountaib pens from the 20ies and 30ies from brands like Osmia, Fink, Melbi, Böhler and others.

 

May be a non-branded fountain pen of a department store or an office supply. Most likely none of the big ones as they would have branded their pens or the box.

 

If it's a wartime pen, then it must be early wartime. Hitler didn't like Fraktur so it was used less and less. There was a "semi official ban" on Fraktur after 1940. So, as it's a piston filler your fountain pen should have been sold in the 30ies. And it's no Osmia, Fink etc. otherwise it would be branded.

 

edited for spelling.

 

Added a link:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/134073-1928-vintage-fountain-pen/

 

(Post from 2009 about a German pen from the late 20ies, same box: "Erstklassiger Füllfederhalter. In jeder Lage zu tragen". Supposed to be IBIS/Pelikan)

Edited August 20, 2011 by acies

[Kaweco]

  On 8/20/2011 at 2:22 PM, acies said:

 

If it's a wartime pen, then it must be early wartime. Hitler didn't like Fraktur so it was used less and less. There was a "semi official ban" on Fraktur after 1940.

Hi acies

Interesting. Did you know him personally?

Thomas

[Bo Bo Olson]

It's nice to know some one looked up something. That was from way back when I first got that pen, back when I was just getting started with the Pen of the Week in the Mail Club.

 

And I can read now I put that Bock nib that was on it up in my nib box...I got a nice near mint large Bock nib that is at least easy full flex, and some how ended up with that strange Fox in the P nib...perhaps because I knew it was a good easy full flex perhaps noodle.

 

More than likely I was so noobie then I didn't know Bock was a good nib, much less what full flex really was.

 

That is what happens when one takes a nib off and don't pay attention... Writing is as near an advantage in life as reading.

 

""""Echte Rarität: Sehr schöner Art Déco-Kolben-Füllfederhalter mit besterhaltener Original-Verpackung u. Gebrauchsanweisung um1928

 

Aus meiner Sammlung, die ich zur Zeit verkleinere, biete ich Ihnen einen wunderschönen schwarzen Kolbenfüllfederhalter in schwarz mit feiner Wellen-Guilloche und Edelchrom-Feder in Stärke M. Wunderschöner Art Déco-Clip! Auf der 1-A-erhaltenen Original-Verpackung steht "ERSTKLASSIGER FÜLLHALTER - In jeder Lage zu tragen"

In dieser Verpackung und schön erhalten, habe ich diesen Füller bisher bei ebay nicht gesehen.

 

Auf der Feder ist ein Steinbock graviert und der Hinweis "Echte Rarität: Sehr schöner Art Déco-Kolben-Füllfederhalter mit besterhaltener Original-Verpackung u. Gebrauchsanweisung um1928

 

Aus meiner Sammlung, die ich zur Zeit verkleinere, biete ich Ihnen einen wunderschönen schwarzen Kolbenfüllfederhalter in schwarz mit feiner Wellen-Guilloche und Edelchrom-Feder in Stärke M. Wunderschöner Art Déco-Clip! Auf der 1-A-erhaltenen Original-Verpackung steht "ERSTKLASSIGER FÜLLHALTER - In jeder Lage zu tragen"

In dieser Verpackung und schön erhalten, habe ich diesen Füller bisher bei ebay nicht gesehen.

 

Auf der Feder ist ein Steinbock graviert und der Hinweis "Edelchrom"

 

Answer from the previous owner.

Ich sammle seit 30 Jahren antike Füllhalter. Dieser F+üller entspricht von Aufbau u. Konstruktion dem IBIS von Pelikan. Auch er wurde erstmals 1928 produziert. Zudem ist der schöne, wie auch seltene Clip, ganz in der Art Déco-Ornamentik der späten 20er Jahre gestaltet.

 

He collected antique fountain pens for over 30 years. It's similar in design and construction of the IBIS from Pelikan that was first produced in 1928. And it has a pretty, seldom Clip of the style of the Art-Deco ornimintation of the late 1920's.

 

OK dated by an expert with 30 years of experience, vs questions of a man who is working on 6 months. Guess I'll take his word on it. Yep 1928 or so. I feel pretty dam lucky to have got it.

"

 

(((Answer from the previous owner of how he dated it.))))

Ich sammle seit 30 Jahren antike Füllhalter. Dieser F+üller entspricht von Aufbau u. Konstruktion dem IBIS **** von Pelikan. Auch er wurde erstmals 1928**** produziert. Zudem ist der schöne, wie auch seltene Clip, ganz in der Art Déco-Ornamentik der späten 20er Jahre gestaltet.

 

He collected antique fountain pens for over 30 years. It's similar in design and construction of the IBIS from Pelikan that was first produced in 1928. And it has a pretty, seldom Clip of the style of the Art-Deco ornamentation of the late 1920's.

 

OK dated by an expert with 30 years of experience, vs questions of a man who is working on 6 months. Guess I'll take his word on it. Yep 1928 or so. I feel pretty dam lucky to have got it."""

 

Well the things wrong with both pens is the Bock nib...one could have a Bock nib....not both with out that being a war pen of ...1939-40.

Art Deco was the stile first named in 1925 in Paris ending in 1940.

 

Edelchrome is noble chrome...'stainless' chrome steel.

 

**** I do suggest everyone get Andreas Lambrou's book on Fountain pens. I did not have that then. Perhaps the Original seller did not know or was off a year in his memory...but Pelikan came out with the Piston in 1929...

 

The IBIS came out in 1936...so he could be a bit right in saying it looks a bit like an IBIS.

 

I don't know I don't have an IBIS..the only picture I have is of a 1948 one that is not our pen. ...and the cap top and blind cap looks more like a 100N 1938. The cap's size and height resembles a 100N except it is a tad more rounded. The more I look at it there is very good resemblance to a Pelikan 100.

 

Many pen companies used a clip like Pelikan, including this, but not so fancy.

 

Osmia made pens for Acckerman of Holland. Could this be a Pelikan made from older 100 parts fancied up and made for some store....but with cheaper Bock nibs in 1939.

Could some one have bought up old Pelikan parts.

 

:eureka: My mother was right...it it had been a snake it would have bit me. (More than likely why I live in a city; allergic to snake bites. :blink: )

I have another 'no name' pen that I bought as a dirt cheap Soennecken because they said it was...it had a Soennecken nib...my Noodle. The pen was not a Soennecken....One of those things where :hmm1: one says...I've seen that marking on the band....and you can't find a pen with it, nor any info.

 

The marking on the pen's band is on our box.

 

Nothing on the pen at all just like ours the top is tall and flat the blind cap hides a metal...aluminum? piston end; not like ours with that twist off middle section.....the cap ring is exactly like on our box.

The once gold plated clip on this pen is not a fancy one like ours. It is like the many other no name pens...though I have two Osmia with that same style of clip.

 

Obvious our pen's brother needs a fancy clip...I have three.....

Edited August 20, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[Gobblecup]

  On 8/20/2011 at 5:51 PM, Kaweco said:

  On 8/20/2011 at 2:22 PM, acies said:

If it's a wartime pen, then it must be early wartime. Hitler didn't like Fraktur so it was used less and less. There was a "semi official ban" on Fraktur after 1940.

Hi acies

Interesting. Did you know him personally?

Thomas

 

I know it may be an assumption to say he (Mr. Hitler) didn't like fraktur, but it was no longer being used by the end of the war, I think the 'argument was that Jews invented it. BUT I don't have any available info to reference this to, and it's not all that important to me to do so. Maybe it's a big misconception, it wouldn't be the first. <shrugs>

 

In any case, Fraktur is a beautiful script, too bad one doesn't see it much these days.

 

Anyways, Kaweco, I think you hit all the possible nails on the head. It looks like a generic 'good quality' German pen made somewhere in the late 30s or 40s.

 

I should really scan "Writing Instruments" better, I can't believe I didn't see this interesting thread until today.